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Monday, January 10, 2011

The Arizona Murders Politicized.

By George:

It wasn't until Saturday evening that I heard about the horrible shootings and murders in Arizona. I read the stories and watched the videos, and my reaction was both anger and sadness. Anger, to realize that such people still walk the streets of America, and sadness for the families who will have to face the future with loved ones now gone or injured.

After the initial shock wore off, my analytical mind took over. There were questions that were not answered by the media that I was referencing. The first question that popped into my mind was, "Why is Sheriff Clarence Dupnik making a political statement at a time like this?" We just witnessed brutal murders of six human beings and the wounding of numerous others, we are waiting for the forensic evaluation of the event, yet this Sheriff is spouting political ideology. Why? Why would he step out his expertise into a speculative rant that has nothing to do with the facts at hand?

 Then it hit me. Here is a man who was negligent, and now he is trying to steer the focus away from himself. And what better way to keep the public from realizing that he is incompetent than by starting to throw accusations around. Accusations that he knew was going to be gobbled up by the media that tends to be complicit in anything that might advance the Liberal cause.

Yet, there was serious negligence. In communities large and small, I have witnessed the local police present at anything that might present a danger to the citizens, anything from utility work to traffic control to crowd control at events. But here is a public appearance that features a Congresswoman, and a well known Judge, but there was no law enforcement presence at all. Yes, negligence!

The second question that gnawed at me was something I have since heard many people ask. Why are all those pundits and politicians running around blaming everyone from the Tea Party to Sarah Palin to Rush Limbaugh to anybody on the right, when we know next to nothing about what happened? Why aren't they saying the same thing now, that they were saying when the shooter with the Muslim name murdered our soldiers at Fort Hood? Everyone, from President Obama on down cautioned not to jump to conclusions without knowing any facts. And even when we heard about the Times Square (almost) bomber with the Muslim name, we were warned not to jump to conclusions, and Mayor Bloomberg even then joked that he was most likely someone who was against Obama's Healthcare plan.

Now here we had an obviously deranged individual who indiscriminatingly targeted a crowd of innocent people, and all we heard was the scattered shriek of political blame. Where was the call for restraint? Could it be that the Liberals and their lapdogs in the media could see a wonderful opportunity to get a leg up on their perceived enemies? Could it be that gaining a political edge was more important than showing concern about the feelings of the massacre victims and their families? Yes, where was that great Liberal empathy? Well, now we really know!

I know that I am going on too long, but I am going to make one more point.

This unfortunate incident once again brought out all the Anti-Gun advocates. Here is the way I look at it. If the people of Arizona had the right to carry a concealed weapons, I am sure that this shooting spree would have been nipped in the bud. Statistics show that localities that allow law abiding citizens to carry weapons, there is less crime. Can you figure out why?

Oh, and here is something that you will not see in your local media. It is an interesting twist from Let me know what you think.

And finally, my prayers join with all the others for the speedy recovery of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords as well as the others injured. May God restore their health speedily.



  2. Sleaze - to the maximus,
    the way this sad event has been "used" -

    I would never have thought, as a kid, that my country would rot from within to the extent that it actually has.

    Media and political figures are - still - trying to leverage this absolutely tragic testament to humankind's capacity towards darkness; for profit! Capacity they promote !

    If you want to call them on the carpet for this, hit them where it hurts; with the truth. The absolute saturation of American media and culture with pretend mayhem and violence is more a reason for this act than talk radio - or political speech. By farther than far.

    What responsibility have :
    The movie makers and TV producers of Hollywood ? - offering children up all those murders and all that violence they see by the age of 10. The video games - take kids to a new level - Yes, they get to participate in, and control the killing and mayhem now - what about this gangster mentality of guns to knife fights?
    Promoted by the office of president for crying out loud. Or just plain near total corruption in governance -

    They are all far more accurate reasons for this evil deed. Much more an explanation of causation than the media's - and certain officials - sorry claims. Claims with the obvious purpose of silencing dissenting voices.

    Those are the places these blamers need turn first. Especially with unleashed censorship.

  3. A few weeks ago somebody said that the administration 'needed' a 911 so the Prez could gain some leverage after the November loss. The article from EU not only throws a twist in it but I always think back to the assassinations of the Kennedys and Martin Luther and a show I saw late one night where an unknown man stated that they were all plots by the CIA. I never forgot that. Now, they write about an assassination of a judge. hmmm... makes one wonder what really is going on. One thing for sure....they want (need) to shut down talk radio and the internet...not to mention cranking down on gun control. The tragedy in Tuscon just gave them all the ammo that they wanted. (needed) Or was it all planned? God help them if it was!
    on a side note....why the hell did they allow a pep rally at a memorial service? grrrrr

  4. Lor1,

    We all seem to forget one of the Pet Peeves the shooter had. He was always talking about "Mind Control"...

    What if.....

  5. Yes, George....seems that mind control is not something new. It's hard to come to conclusions on anything....and it's also hard to believe everything that is released. I wonder if we'll ever find out!

  6. I would recommend some research on that topic.
    While I don't particularly like or trust Alex Jones = here is their take on it -

    Jerry Garcia talks of his participation in CI a LSD experiments at the university in Palo Alto Ca. - very interesting - also tests were done at UTA - research Rocky Ericson of the 13th floor elevators.


    We must not forget the Tuskegee Experiment - a state sanctioned wanton endeavor that suggests all things, even the far fetched, are possible. - and if you have Netflix, I would highly recommend "Radio Bikini". Ok all you brave veterans - sit here, like the goats, and let us see what radiation can do. If you have the bandwidth you can watch that online. A must see =

    The real focus of my post is here though
    Operation Artichoke - and
    Century of Self

    This is part 3 of Century of Self, and addresses the issue most directly - find the other parts to watch the entire presentation.

    I advocate no point of view here - I only offer the research I have done for a book. Free exchange of information -


  7. WARNING - VERY long. So long, in fact, I had to break it into more than one

    Okay, bear with me on my comment here, because I had to take apart the different ideas presented - since there are several separate matters addressed.

    First, let's look at Sheriff Dupnik. I'll grant that I have not lived in my home state in 20 years...21 years come June...but he's been the Pima County Sheriff since I still lived there (I didn't live in Pima County, mind, but Cochise County). Tucson has an extremely low violent crime rate...probably the highest property crime rate in the country (larceny, especially), but low on violent crime, no matter how Fox News tried to spin it back in November (LOL). I know this is more of a "promo" page about Sheriff Dupnik...but what is noted therein is easily verified: ~ people within AND outside of Arizona tend to either "side" with Dupnik or Arpaio, depending specifically on what their personal politics are. I like and dislike things about both men, to be blunt...but I also found calling out Dupnik for stating his personal/political opinion at that time in equally poor form as calling out anyone else. Before we claim to hold Dupnik to any "higher standard" - then we need to hold ALL public officials to a higher standard, including Sarah Palin. Dupnik has been a solid and responsible figure in Pima County for more than 30 years, and a police officer for more than 50 years. I won't tell you I always like/agree with him, but I do respect him. So do the people of Tucson & Pima County - or they would not keep voting for him every 4 years. Like every other public figure, he has a voice, and he uses it. I rarely see equal criticism of Arpaio by the "right wing"...and I only note that in response to your calling out the "left" with respect to Dupnik. Whenever Arpaio does anything, the "right" treats it like it's manna from heaven...never mind his atrocious and appalling history of abuses and horrific corruption in Maricopa County. Both sheriffs are vociferous in their views; only one has a history of blatant corruption and irresponsibility - and that one is NOT Dupnik, even having been an Arizona sheriff in another county for almost a decade longer. [...]

  8. [...]

    Second - the people who were pointed out straightaway. I won't deny that I couldn't help but wonder the possible political motivations of the psychotic actions of Jared Loughner. I also admit that I wondered if he wasn't motivated in *some* way by the Tea Party - given the unapologetic stance and underlying racist motivations of their organization (I will come back to why I firmly believe the Tea Party to be racist - as well as one positive thing I believe they have brought to the forefront). Upon discovery that the Tucson shooting was not (to anyone's knowledge) politically motivated, I *almost* felt bad for the heavy-hitting right-wing pundits, including Palin. Almost. The reason I *didn't* feel too awful for Palin was...well, if you watched what she (or her press folks) did immediately following the shooting, then you wouldn't be able to help but wonder WHY? The moment the shooting in Tucson became national and international news, all of a sudden, her violent rhetoric started getting removed from her web site, from her facebook, from her tweets...and there were the transparently staged emails between her and Glenn Beck...etc. (I noted much in my own blog here: I do agree that individuals who speak their political opinions should not be directly blamed for the violent acts of a deranged person; that said, I hold ALL sides accountable for that...not just the one I disagree with. I tend to take Rude Pundit's position about what happened in the surreal aftermath of the shooting: and (warning: he is very blunt with his language...called Rude for a reason...I agree strongly with the points he makes in those entries). I'll also note that Rude was one of the FIRST people - when the shooting first hit the media - telling people to NOT jump to any conclusions about politics. *nod* To me, the nature of how the "right" tends to smear Obama by emphasizing his middle name is just as insidious and irresponsible. I SO agree that conclusions shouldn't be jumped to...and I agree that the only person *ultimately* responsible for the murder is the murderer...however, I stop short of saying that people in the public eye should not bear some of the responsibility for what they've vocalized - because crazy people (on all sides) can and do take those words seriously. This brings me to an in-between topic that did not get nearly as much press coverage... [...]

  9. [...]

    ...and this is equally heart-breaking, but I doubt many people outside of Arizona have read about it, and I am completely unsurprised by the lack of coverage about it. <--the murder case is national news, too and nobody wants to talk about it, but the murder was also politically motivated. I grew up with and am still friends with people who support (and a couple who are members of) vigilante groups determined to stop illegal immigration coming across the southern border. That, though, is an entirely different subject - and is also extraordinarily complex - though it has long been oversimplified by the federal government (and most people from Arizona ARE furious about it, whether they agree or disagree with Brewer's insane SB1070 passage). I don't know how much you know about the Minutemen ( but many of the members are VERY scary people. The racist elements cannot be understated. Any more than the racist underpinnings of the writing of SB1070 itself actually are, but as I said, that is a different topic. (I could say A LOT on this subject...but it would have to be an entry of its own, completely separate from the Tucson shooting that your blog entry here is actually about.) That said, the subject of racism segues nicely to something I was going to return to from earlier... [...]

    ...and that is why I believe the Tea Party to be racist. I share Tim Wise's views on this topic primarily - and how he frames his questions - which I have yet to hear/read about anyone actually dispute legitimately or without getting defensive:

    But what I do believe the Tea Party brought back to the American forefront, which is an important reminder, is the idea of public, peaceful protest - protected by our very First Amendment. I do not agree with what the Tea Party stands for...most of them do not have any cogent or cohesive understanding of the history or the Enlightenment and that the American Founding Fathers were sons of the Enlightenment...but I agree with them in their way of taking their voice to the streets. *nod* [...]

  10. [...]

    Third, and finally...the discussion of gun control versus concealed weapons laws. *sighs heavily* Understand up front - I approach this topic with very mixed feelings. First, I am a 2nd Amendment supporter. I grew up in Arizona, having family from both Arizona & Texas is probably a big hint that I don't have any issues with guns. (Used to be an excellent shot, too.) However, I was raised in *responsible* gun ownership - not blind support of gun ownership for its own sake. I believe certifications should be attained. I believe that taxes on guns should be paid. I do not believe that AKs & uzis and other auto & semi-automatic weaponry belong in the hands of private citizens (should be reserved for military and police). There are numerous legitimate reasons for weapons' ownership - most of which I have no arguments with. However, I also get REALLY irritable with the false comparisons with European countries - particularly Switzerland. You note in your info that you're an immigrant - so this will likely be extremely familiar to you...unlike to most Americans. Americans who are anti-gun control LOVE to cite Switzerland and the mandate that every able-bodied male of a certain age owns a weapon. What they leave out (either deliberately or innocently matters not) is that there is ALSO a mandated conscription, and that the ownership is in readiness preparation - NOT for self-defense purposes. I also take a bit of umbrage with the assertion that "statistics show that localities that allow law abiding citizens to carry weapons, there is less crime" -- because several studies have also shown that Lott was wrong,_Less_Crime#Studies_Against <--I don't like citing wikipedia, but the original source references are listed, so... There is no concrete evidence that more guns equals less crime. It just means that there are more guns. Which, in and of itself I don't have a problem with - but I'm not trying to create a false dichotomy either.

    My apologies for this being so incredibly long - but there are several different topics to consider, and this comment really barely just scratches the surface. Also, as a point of note, though I may have missed a couple - I tend to put "right" and "left" in quotes. I don't think anyone should be pigeonholed into a "right" or "left" position, for two reasons. People have -customarily- multiple perspectives, depending on the subject/platform, that could put even someone like Glenn Beck in a "left-leaning" position. The other reason is international comparison, the United States does not have a true Left on the left-right political spectrum. So I use quotes to identify the *stereotype*, rather than refer to anyone as a wingnut or an "ist" - though I am not so kind in my own blog...LOL.

    Cheers. :)

  11. Prosey, (now I know why you call yourself that)

    This is some soliloquy, but my reflections will have to wait until Saturday night at the earliest, since I am totally off-line until then.

    Cheers back at ya. :-)

  12. Hi Prosey,
    I tried very hard to get through all of your points and I thank you for taking the time to respond. While my own time is limited right now, I would like to respond in kind to a few of your remarks.
    1. You believe the Tea Party to be racist. Well it all must be Bush's fault. That position, to me, is very played out and directly out of the Rules for Radicals book. While you are linking the party with vigilantes, I will admit I'm no expert on the vigilante groups , but I've been to several Tea Parties and in my own experience I've never felt more American with these groups. They love this country and they truly hate the direction we are going. At the parties, we sing American songs, we listen to Patriots and service men who love this country. And for that we are racist and bad people. The decision made by our government to spend, spend, spend, set off a spark that is still growing. TEA - Tax Enough Already - that's what it stands for..... but the media ignores the facts and loves to scream 'race.' or call us 'teabaggers' or any other insulting name they can think of. NBC's own anchor man was the one who started it all. Rick Santelli's Rant inspired the Tea Party. Did everybody forget that? Not me!
    And he was RIGHT about his rants. We were all snapping about the mortgage crisis that was supported by the democratic party for years, was the beginning of our doom. It had nothing to do with race! But it's all the Olberman's, Matthew's and Maddocks etc etc, who love to cry race but right now it makes them all look like a bunch of fools.

  13. 2 The Tuscon shooting mad me sick. And when the state run media started pointing fingers to Palin, Beck, Rush, Hannity and any other Conservative name, I was disgusted. Dupnik was wrong to make claims again them too. He had no evidence. And as time went by it was proven that the young man behind the gun was NOT a Tea Party member, nor did he listen to the news or radio. Obamma called for civility but the state run media wouldn't stop as if they had permission to spread lies. And Dupnik is still speaking out for his own political gain. But you like Dupnik for your own reasons. I like Arpaio for my own reasons. We won't agree. I too, lived down south. In Texas. And I know what I've seen with the 'illegals' and how they have hurt this country economically. But that is a topic for another day.
    The Tea Party is made up of Americans. But because of their beliefs, they are now finding themselves on the DHT list. What? Lately I question if there are any Liberals who like America any more. Though I did meet many Democrats at the Tea Party who are in shock at the direction the country is going.
    The Left vs the Right is just horrible. This administration has created the divide. I see wives and husbands breaking up. Family members fighting over the issues. And my heart is broken.
    Racist? No. Not at all. We've been overrun by unions who can't make their books balance so we, the tax payer has to foot the bill. We get cursed because we don't buy American, but how can we when union mandates and government regulations keep forcing the prices up? Good people are losing their jobs. America is going down the tubes. And that's labeled racist? Give me a break!!

  14. I believe that American history has been so twisted by the 'left' - and I say that as most teachers are so very liberal. They are run by the unions. I believe that our colleges have been spreading the wrong message to our children and are not teaching the truth all for the sake of the progressive agenda that has been growing since the 60's. It's not all Obamma's fault. The fear that is felt is because of the rate of speed that our country is failing. My own niece graduated from college and one night started chanting that 'capitalism is bad....bad....bad...' what the hell?
    3. What drove that man to shoot Giffords was something else.
    What drives the Tea Party is NOT racism.
    If our schools would start teaching history the way it really was, they would realize that it was the Democrats who were the true racists but in today's world they love to scream 'racist' when somebody disagrees with them.

  15. Take a few minutes and watch this video. Take a little history lesson....and's NOT Glenn Beck. I crack up when everybody picks on him and all he's been doing is teaching history or opening eyes to the communists in our government. He doesn't force us to believe him....rather he begs us to do our own homework...but the media would rather take a sentence that he says and twist it into something that didn't even touch what he meant... it's all screwed up and and I'm sick of the crap that the state run media is pushing on innocent people. All the lies spread about these guys and no one even bothers to really watch them or listen to them.

    ok....I strayed....sorry about that.... I get crazy sometimes...

    but this video and then tell me that the Tea Party and the Republicans are racist. In truth, the Liberal Democrats Want the poor families to be dependent on them so they can continue to lie and keep them as voters.

    Sorry...I've run out of time....hope I made some sort of sense...
    Have a Great day!

  16. Wait, Lori...when did I blame Bush *anywhere*? I didn't blame him at all...and didn't even mention him (I don't think) anywhere in my (admittedly enormous) post. I liked him as Governor (lived in Texas at that time), and I voted for him BOTH times - though I won't pretend I'm his biggest fan. I'm not a fan of the Tea Party, and I won't pretend to be - your experience is yours, and I respect/appreciate that. I've also borne witness to some pretty atrocious behavior. I do my best not to ever sink to that behavior...and though I disagree, I also try to seek out the positive, which the Tea Party has brought peaceful protest, as I said. I wasn't trying to get anyone defensive here at all...I was trying to point out that the shooting in Tucson was a horrific tragedy -but the politics in Arizona are also extremely complex/multi-layered. I thought (I hoped) I was making that clear. I apologize if I wasn't - we can disagree about the Tea Party all day long, and I'll still support your right to be a part of them. :)

    George, I look forward to it.

  17. Oh, but thinking on Dubya ~ one of the few things that he did mention toward the end of his presidency was his stance on immigration - and it was one of the few things that I actually agreed with him about, come to it. I have family all throughout Texas (and am both a DoT and DAR by birthright, though I'm in no way interested in membership LOL). I know full well what the issues with illegal immigration are. I also know that much of the problem with SB1070 are less about fixing that problem (because there are no true penalties to the organizations that hire under the table).

    I did work my way through your points (I know what TEA stands for :) - and I thought I'd clarified *why* I tag racism with the organization, though I'm not suggesting that all, or even most, members of the movement are racists) ~ and before anyone makes the mistake of thinking I'm "anticapitalist", let me fix that outright. I *am* a capitalist, circa...oh, 1860-ish...pre-14th Amendment. What I am *not* is an Unregulated Corporate Capitalist (which is an entirely different animal).

    While we're on the subject of history and how it's taught in schools, why don't we discuss the nature of the TX BoE and the myriad attempts to remove *anything* that shows the nature of our Founding Fathers? Why did they try to replace Thomas Jefferson with St. Thomas Aquinas (who is also an important Enlightenment figure - but we're talking about American history - why would Jefferson be marginalized?) ~ why is it that my kids are both unique in that they know who Thomas Paine was? Even my dad (conservative historian, in agreement with both of you on several points herein, supportive of the TX BoE) was surprised that Thomas Paine is not taught to be one of the founding fathers anymore - never mind that he was coined the Father of the American Revolution and he was *radical*--he would be considered a radical by today's standards.

    No, it's not the teaching of history. It's the whitewashing of history that bothers me. Our country is a GOOD country - but she is polarized right now. I'm inclined to want to open up dialogs with people I disagree with, because I believe it's through communication (instead of shouting down) that we resolve major issues.

  18. Prosey, YOU confuse me, or perhaps on purpose? you make a statement then you don't want to talk about it but you want further dialogs?....I took some time to read that Tim Wise article and it, too, was not an accurate report of the truth...only his twisted opinions... I also took some time to read about the minutemen,.... you think they're racist? They're watching the borders unless you feel that anyone who stops an ILLEGAL alien is racist and bad... So I'll just end this topic with, you're wrong again about the Tea Party, and your assessments on racism. Unless you can prove to me specific cases of racism by the Tea Party, I'm going to shrug this off....there are far more cases of racism against the Liberal and Democrat party...if you had even taken a few minutes to watch that video. The Tea Party knows exactly what is going on in this country.... they are not the idiots that the Liberal media keeps telling you they are. Once again...keep telling a lie and they'll eventually believe you. MSNBC's crew comes to mind...Rachel Maddow especially! LOL
    no big deal. Tell your Dad that he's always right! :-)

  19. Where did I say I didn't want to talk (and about what?)? I'm here...sharing what appears to be a two-way dialog with you. The only think I came *back* to as a sidebar comment was about Dubya, since one of the first comments you made to me was an assumption that I was "blaming Bush" ~ that was you, not me. I returned to that assumption as a sidebar - but that topic independently has almost nothing to do with this overall post. So...what exactly are you talking about when you say that I made a statement I didn't make? And...No, I am not trying to confuddle anyone. :) Specific cases? Sure. , , , ,

    Yes, I watched the video you presented, and you seem right pleased about presenting your evidence from the face and mouth of a black man, as though just because he's black he's suddenly got credibility because he happens to also be conservative. *blink* Wow...there are MANY non-white conservatives. That isn't (or shouldn't be) a surprise to anyone. I enjoy discussions with intelligent conservatives who recognize that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" should not be used in a denigrating way...because they are a necessary balance to each other.

    I didn't say that every member of the minutemen are racists - that would be you twisting what I actually *did* say, which is that some of the members are quite scary, and that the racist elements cannot be understated. Stopping "illegals" from crossing the border isn't racist, no. Creating laws that by their design and implementation create racial profiling based on skin color and accent? Perhaps not a "superiority complex" definition of racism, if you're being technical about it, but SB1070 creates racial discrimination. I am unhappy about illegal immigration, and have been frustrated with the federal gov't for a very long time about its handling of the southern border. That does not mean that I think SB1070 is a good all.

    What did Wise say in his article that was inaccurate specifically? What about Maddow bothers you so much?

  20. I don't have a whole lot of time to respond today. I did take a few minutes to check the links you posted about the tea party racism. sorry...none of it convinced me. Most of it was opinion pieces and it's already been proven that the left wing news planted alot of their own people to 'try' to portray the tea party as racist. Gee, remember the big spit controversy? it was all bullchit. How about the little black guy who got beat up by SEIU thugs outside a tea party meeting? How about the wonderful black speakers at the tea parties? Gee, if the party was so racist why would they ever have black speakers?

    so, no, I didn't see any proof. Tim Wise was yet another opinion article. Another one who loves to bash Rush and completely distort the truth. I crack up with all these people who will do anything to bash famous people just to try to get a name for themselves. Speaking of distorting the truth, Maddow is notorious for it. Just put in your google search "Maddow Lies" and you'll get hundreds of examples.. .and like I said I have no time today. Maddow's only existence is to pick on everyone that she disagrees with to try to lift her declining ratings. She's just another state run media flop who gets off on demonizing the right. I've watched her several times just to formulate my own opinion. Most people who pick on Rush and Hannity and Beck have never listened to them but chose to believe the lies about them. The Alinsky rules to demonize have run amock in this country and way too many people are believing those lies. The first day the Tea Party was born was the day that they were labeled racist. The media ran with it. If anyone doesn't agree with this administration, they are automatically a racist. *blink* WOW

    and come to think of it, I do enjoy a good exchange of thoughts and I can shoot the sarcasm right back to you but in respect George and his blog, I won't. And yes...I was "pleased" to send you that video...but your assumption was wrong. It was NOT because the man was black but because his knowledge of history and proof that the democrats have always been the true racists in this country. Apparently you only saw the color of his skin. And lets not forget the latest disgusting proof of racism in this country....oh gee, from the progressives who keep saying they're so in tuned with the black community and want to help them? yeah right....
    May God Bless and watch over us! This country is in big trouble and going down the tubes quickly.

  21. Likewise, I'm short on time today. I have listened to Rush. My ex's dad is a huge fan, so I've been dosed up by Rush...plenty. As for Maddow ~ the fact that her education (and specifically what her education is in) speaks volumes about her ...especially in the face of all the neocons you name here. I never said everyone that disagrees with this administration is racist. If I had said that, then I would have to categorize myself as a racist...since there is *plenty* about this administration that infuriates me.

    And I googled "Maddow Lies" - and found that all those hits you talk about distortions? Fully debunked. See...when I research history? I don't look for what I either agree or disagree with (in fact, if I find myself in agreement, I tend to be even *more* skeptical) ~ but such is a natural result of the nature of how I was taught to study. When looking up a subject, I try to research and review *all* sides of the story prior to formulating any opinion. Before you disparage "Democrats" and put "Republicans" in the Party of Lincoln, you might wanna consider exactly WHY you will find next to no statues of him in the South...why he was so despised by southern people...what the Great (party) Migrations were all about. A good place to start (and one of the original strategists for the Republican party as we know it today) is Kevin Phillips' book "American Theocracy" ( <--hard book to read...puts a LOT of the history into perspective, and he is a very thorough (if a bit pedantic) writer, sensitive to the history.

    Yeah, our country IS in trouble - and you might think I'm being sarcastic - but I'm really not. When I say people like you & people like me need to have these types of discussions, I mean it sincerely. You & I can disagree about all the pundits all day long (and we will lol) ~ but it's through intelligent and honest discourse (even -and perhaps especially WITH- the disagreements) that we find answers to the big problems.

  22. Returning to this thread for different reasons ~

    Wanted to share this article I just came across, about the other case of a child-murder in AZ that didn't receive quite as much media attention when it happened, and its current status:

    Now, to understand how it's relevant to the discussion between me & Lori with respect to the vigilante groups in southern AZ, you'll have to read a bit more of the history (which is all online) ~ and the backstory is appalling and sad.


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